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dukuso

Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 454
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Location: germany

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the first of these .zip files, there was also a file
"copyright.txt" with the content:


>Copyright 2005 - Angus Johnson
>
>The files in this zipped archive are protected by copyright.
>They may be used for personal use only and are not to be copied
>or redistributed in any form without the expressed permission


please stop claiming copyright for sudokus !

It is at least doubtful, whether sodukus can be copyrighted.

I think, in most countries they probably can't.

You can't copyright math.-entities, and sudokus can quite well be
viewed as such. (compare with QWH-instances !)

In USA e.g. you can't copyright "facts", only "creative work".
But generating sudokus in bulk by computer can hardly be
considered "creative work". Anyone can do this with public
domain programs.
Even if some sudokus might have been made by hand and by
"creative work", how would they prove it ?

Also, if such "creative work" is solely used for scientific or
educational purposes without earning money from it, it's allowed
to use them in most countries as an exception from copyright.


I post a program below, which randomly transforms
a sudoku by one of the 9!*6^8*2 equivalence transformations,
which keeps all the properties of the sudoku including
the solving strategies invariant but still makes a
completely different sudoku.

Note, this is not intended to "circumvent" any copyright
on sudokus, because I don't think any such copyright
exists. At least not in Germany, USA, UK , other states
who signed the Berne convention or support the
EC Directive 2001/29/EC.

Yes, it's intended to demonstrate the uselessness
of copyright claims here
but it's also useful to randomize sudokus for better
hardness measure and benchmarking.


Don't hinder scientific research by copyright claims !
Don't accuse others of breaching copyright, as long as this
is at least very doubtful !
Be aware, that whatever sudoku you put on the web might
somehow find it's way into my database.
And I don't accept copyright on sudokus until you can demonstrate
a court-decision or explicite law about this.



-Guenter Stertenbrink.




---------------------------------------------------

// this program is put into "public domain" by sterten@aol.com
// randomly transforms the sudokus in file into equivalent sudokus
// compiled with gcc3.2 , executable at http://magictour.free.fr/surnd.exe

#include <stdio.h>
#include <time.h>
#define MWC ( (zr=36969*(zr&65535)+(zr>>16)) ^ (wr=18000*(wr&65535)+(wr>>16)) )
#define N 3
#define N2 N*N
#define N4 N2*N2

unsigned zr=362436069, wr=521288629;

int P[N4],A[N2+9][N2+9],B[N2+9][N2+9],I[N2+9];
int a,p,i,j,k,n,m,r,c,d,x,y,s;
char L[65]=".123456789ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz#*~";
FILE *file;
void Pb(int n);


int main(int argc,char*argv[]){
if(argc<2){m5:printf("\nusage:surnd file\n\n randomly transforms the sudokus in file into equivalent sudokus\n");
printf(" with same properties (except symmetries of clues)\n\n");
printf(" The Format of the sudokus in file is : 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 for the clues, \n");
printf(" 0 or . for the empty places, other characters are ignored\n\n");
printf(" Output is one sudoku per line, just 81 characters.\n\n");
printf(" You can redirect the output to another file by : surnd filein >fileout\n\n");
printf(" Use a converter, e.g. http://merri.net/sudoku.zip \n if you want the sudokus in another format\n\n\n\n");
printf(" this program is put into public domain 2005-9-7 by sterten@aol.com\n");
printf(" source code is attached to this executable\n");
exit(1);}
x=rawclock();zr^=x;wr+=x;P[0]=0;
for(i=1;i<x;i++)MWC;
//printf("%i %u %u %u\n",x,zr,wr,MWC&65535);

if((file=fopen(argv[1],"rb"))==NULL)
{fclose(file);printf("\nfile-error\n\n");goto m5;}
m6:i=0;for(x=1;x<=N2;x++)for(y=1;y<=N2;y++){
m1:if(feof(file))exit(1);
c=fgetc(file);j=0;if(c=='.'|| c=='0')goto m7;
while(L[j]!=c && j<=N2)j++;if(j>N2)goto m1;
m7:A[x][y]=j;i++;}



for(y=0;y<N2;y+=N){Pb(N);for(i=1;i<=N;i++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)B[y+i][j]=A[y+P[i]][j];for(i=y+1;i<=y+N;i++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)A[i][j]=B[i][j];}
Pb(N);for(x=1;x<=N;x++)for(y=1;y<=N;y++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)B[x*N-N+y][j]=A[P[x]*N-N+y][j];for(i=1;i<=N2;i++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)A[i][j]=B[i][j];

for(i=1;i<=N2;i++)for(j=i+1;j<=N2;j++){x=A[i][j];A[i][j]=A[j][i];A[j][i]=x;}

for(y=0;y<N2;y+=N){Pb(N);for(i=1;i<=N;i++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)B[y+i][j]=A[y+P[i]][j];for(i=y+1;i<=y+N;i++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)A[i][j]=B[i][j];}
Pb(N);for(x=1;x<=N;x++)for(y=1;y<=N;y++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)B[x*N-N+y][j]=A[P[x]*N-N+y][j];for(i=1;i<=N2;i++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)A[i][j]=B[i][j];

x=(MWC>>3)&7;if(x>3)for(i=1;i<=N2;i++)for(j=i+1;j<=N2;j++){x=A[i][j];A[i][j]=A[j][i];A[j][i]=x;}

Pb(N2);for(i=1;i<=N2;i++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)A[i][j]=P[A[i][j]];

for(i=1;i<=N2;i++)for(j=1;j<=N2;j++)printf("%c",L[A[i][j]]);printf("\n");
goto m6;
}


void Pb(int n){ // makes a random permutation P[1..n]
for(i=1;i<=n;i++){mr1:r=(MWC>>11)&63;if(r>=i)goto mr1;r++;P[i]=P[r];P[r]=i;}
}
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angusj
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dukuso wrote:
please stop claiming copyright for sudokus !

I understand that you don't like it.

dukuso wrote:
It is at least doubtful, whether sodukus can be copyrighted.

Well I disagree and, unless you can convince me otherwise (ie with links to court rulings), I think it's perfectly valid and reasonable to do so.

They are a creative work, and the product of a creative work. If someone wanted to use a couple of "my" puzzles to illustrate a technique, of course I'm not concerned. I have no intention of hindering the sharing of a few puzzles here - I actively engage in that myself. I just don't want them appearing as a whole collection in some book where someone is deriving income from my creative efforts.

Finally, have you wondered why newspapers don't just copy Sudoku puzzles from other newspapers? It's precisely because copyright notices attached to these puzzles prevent it.
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chuckfresno

Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argusj --

Thanks for the new puzzle packs!
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dukuso

Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>dukuso wrote:
>>please stop claiming copyright for sudokus !
>
>I understand that you don't like it.

in your own interest. If you have copyright, you have it
even without that file "copyright.txt" , if not then the file
can't change that.
But accusing others in public of illegal action, when actually
it's perfectly legal is not a nice thing. Even illegal by itself
in some countries.

Myself, I'm just concerned about the future of (math-)science,
when folks start to claim copyright on sudokus-->QWH-instances-->
latin squares-->permutations-->numbers

>dukuso wrote:
>>It is at least doubtful, whether sodukus can be copyrighted.
>
>Well I disagree

you disagree, that it's doubtful ?? Do you know more than
those who doubt ?
See my references in the previous post which you cut.
Show any law, any webpage, any case which states that
computer generated sudokus like this can be copyrighted.

>and, unless you can convince me otherwise
>(ie with links to court rulings), I think it's perfectly
>valid and reasonable to do so.

in what country do you live ? Usually it's up to the accuser
to prove guilt. So, name the law which you think I'm violating
by including some of your puzzles in my public list.

>They are a creative work, and the product of a creative work.

... and ? Where is the argument ? They are not already
creative work just because you say so.

>If someone wanted to use a couple of "my" puzzles to illustrate
>a technique, of course I'm not concerned.

but it's still illegal ? So the public prosecutor might be concerned.

>I have no intention of hindering the sharing of a few puzzles here -
>I actively engage in that myself.

although it's illegal in your opinion.

>I just don't want them appearing as a whole collection in some book
>where someone is deriving income from my creative efforts.

hehe, you can create enough sudokus for a book in a second by
public-domain software. Why should someone make a book from
"your" sudokus ? If he did, that could be creative work, BTW,
thus giving copyright to the book, but not the sudokus themselves.

>Finally, have you wondered why newspapers don't just copy
>Sudoku puzzles from other newspapers?

pah, newspapers. Whodda they know about sudokus and
international law ? This is internet.
Also, why do they have their own reporters ? They don't like
to admit copying from other newspapers.
Once a court throws down the copyright on sudokus, would you
expect the Times starts copying the Telegraph sudokus ?
That would be like admitting that their own ones are worse.

>It's precisely because
>copyright notices attached to these puzzles prevent it.

who told you ? You're always so sure ...
The copyright notices are only recommended to help with
lawer-fees etc. while _enforcing_ the copyright.
They have no legal effect on the copyright itself.
As I said, _if_ it's copyright, then it's copyright without
that notice anyway. (in most countries)



-Guenter.
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angusj
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckfresno wrote:
Thanks for the new puzzle packs!

Thanks. I've just updated the "undefined" collection so it now contains 99 puzzles. (The puzzles tend to get a little harder the higher their number but they all are very solvable.)
http://angusj.com/sudoku/undefined_puzzles.zip

dukuso wrote:
...

Hi Guenter. Let's just agree to disagree.
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dukuso

Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

angusj wrote:
[Hi Guenter. Let's just agree to disagree.



I don't understand what exactly that means. No such winged
words in German translation.
You don't want to continue discussing this ?
But you do want to continue accusing me and others
of illegal action ?
I was hoping you were open to proper arguing.

I disagree, when you say that we agree.
And if we disagree I'd prefer to discuss and clarify the
points so we finally agree. That's what you mean ?
Probably not. I assume you want to fix the disagreement
and stop working to reduce it.

Grr, who invented that silly proverb ? Hope, politicians
won't act on it ... ;-)
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angusj
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dukuso wrote:
You don't want to continue discussing this ?

That's right. I don't think we're likely to reach agreement so further discussion on this would seem pointless to me.
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busch

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

angusj wrote:
chuckfresno wrote:
Thanks for the new puzzle packs!

Thanks. I've just updated the "undefined" collection so it now contains 99 puzzles. (The puzzles tend to get a little harder the higher their number but they all are very solvable.)
http://angusj.com/sudoku/undefined_puzzles.zip

dukuso wrote:
...

Hi Guenter. Let's just agree to disagree.


Thanks, angusj! I also find it very clear, to add a copyright note to your sudoku-collection - just to prevent unwanted commercial use - that's ok!

@Günter: Den Ausspruch "Wir sind uns einig, dass wir uns in diesem Punkt uneinig sind." müsstest Du eigentlich schon vom einen oder anderen Politiker gehört haben.
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dukuso

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<Post deleted>
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Nick70

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dukuso wrote:
They are public domain

So you are taking a copyrighted collection and re-releasing it as public domain?
Only the copyright owner can do that.
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dukuso

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick70 wrote:
dukuso wrote:
They are public domain

So you are taking a copyrighted collection and re-releasing it as public domain?
Only the copyright owner can do that.



I don't think they are copyrighted.
Please enter the discussion when you think they are !
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chuckfresno

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dukuso wrote:
Nick70 wrote:
dukuso wrote:
They are public domain

So you are taking a copyrighted collection and re-releasing it as public domain?
Only the copyright owner can do that.



I don't think they are copyrighted.
Please enter the discussion when you think they are !


And I don't think a tuna is a fish -- this doesn't change the fact that it is a fish. What you are doing is obnixious and pointless.

What you're doing to Argus is rude at best. The best result you can hope for is that he'll give up and stop putting out puzzle collections. You are protecting nobody and nothing.

Is Argus, who is creating and releasing these puzzles free to the public the best target for your anti-copyright campaign? I've looked at dozens of books of Sudoku at the bookstore -- they ALL claim copyright. Some *specifically* refer to the individual puzzles as being copyrighted. Most of the puzzles published in major papers also contain copyright notices under the individual puzzles. These entities have the money -- and some incentive -- to put up a court fight.

What should and shouldn't be allowed in your opinion or your interpretation of one or another local copyright laws is meaningless. Most infringement disputes are won by the entitiy with the most money and/or power. Go ahead -- collect all the Sudoku published in newspapers or on websites by the UK TIMES or the TELEGRAPH and enter them into the public domain on in this forum as you've done to Argus. Make sure to notify them that you're doing it because you don't think they have any rights. I PROMISE you that they will take action against you. They'll probably force this forum to be closed down, send you a cease and desist letter or worse. If you have enough time and money you might prevail in court -- after losing most of your time and money. Your friends will think you are right, your family will think you are right, your lawyer will think you are right, the bank to which you will have to sell your house in order to pay your lawyer will think you are right.

Even if you could make a case -- and this is not cut and dry as you claim it is -- that a single puzzle is too small, that it doesn't pass your personal test to be a creative work, a collection of 100 of them is another thing again. The simple act of compiling short works that ARE in the public domain in a cohesive work makes the whole a creative work.

Again, you CANNOT make a distinction between those that are computer generated and those that are made by hand -- you can't prove one way or the other anyway.

I don't want to go back and forth one what should and shouldn't be -- I don't believe in intrinsic "right" and "wrong" only "legal" and "illegal", "agreed-upon" and "not-agreed-upon". If a group of people with power over other decide to enforce certain rules at a certain time in a certain place -- that's real. You think Argus has no rights to his work. I think I have the right to sell your house. If I can win in court, that's just
what I'll do. It has nothing to do with right and wrong -- certainly not logic.

I don't understand the majority of e.e.cummings work. It looks like monkeys on typewriters to me. My ingnorance does not give me the right or power to put his work into the public domain.

I personally think all the books in the bookstores on Sudoku are garbage, spit out by programs by people who for the most part don't give a rat's ass about puzzles or puzzle solvers, they just want to cash in as easily as possible. Half of these "authors" have credits that have absolutely nothing to do with the field -- they just thought they could grab some cash. They will flood the market with puzzles that for the most part are in the Very Easy to Medium range and the general public will become bored and forget Sudoku within another 12 months or so. I hope most of them get a rash. None of this invalidates they're claim to copyright. I think Argus has demonstrated that he puts *far* more work and thought into both his sofware and the creation of the puzzles and puzzle packs than *any* of the authors and compilers with books out. This doesn't give him a greater claim to copyright, but certainly not less.

Finally, no one is losing anything and nothing is at risk if Argus adds a copyright notice to his puzzles. Maybe you are right, that it does him no good. Until and unless you can show that someone is being harmed by his action -- cut it out! If you want to test your claim that these puzzles are not protected, challenge someone with the time and money to take you to court -- bullying Argus proves nothing.
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Nick70

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wholeheartedly agree with everything chuckfresno said, especially with the last paragraph.

If you are so sure aof yourself, by all means pick your target among the people that publish Sudoku books, and put your money where your mouth is. Stop messing with Angus and all the otehr people that do this only for fun.
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dukuso

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckfresno wrote:

>dukuso wrote:
>>Nick70 wrote:
>>>dukuso wrote:
>>>>They are public domain
>
>>>So you are taking a copyrighted collection and re-releasing
>>>it as public domain?
>>>Only the copyright owner can do that.
>
>>I don't think they are copyrighted.
>>Please enter the discussion when you think they are !
>
>
>And I don't think a tuna is a fish -- this doesn't change
>the fact that it is a fish. What you are doing is obnixious and pointless.

please say why. And it must be possible to figure out by collective
effort here whether a tuna is a fish or whatever. ;-)

>What you're doing to Angus is rude at best.

ahh no, I didn't want to hurt anyone. I don't think it will hurt him.
He already posted the puzzles. I didn't question the copyright on his
software. He can get 100 puzzles from mine for exchange, if he wants ;-)

>The best result you can hope for is that he'll give up and
>stop putting out puzzle collections.

the best thing I can hope for is, that I finally convince you all.

>You are protecting nobody and nothing.

I'm protecting science.

>Is Angus, who is creating and releasing these puzzles free
>to the public the best target for your anti-copyright campaign?

Tso challenged me with Angus ;-)
Ahh no, it hasn't to do with Angus. Except maybe that he refused
to justify his claim, but that's not the main point.
You're invited to follow my other copyright discussions with
Nakamura,Simes,Vegard,Monckton,Tso,pemlaco

>I've looked at dozens of books of Sudoku at the bookstore --
>they ALL claim copyright. Some *specifically* refer to the
>individual puzzles as being copyrighted.

does that mean anything ? Can they be made responsible for
unjustified claiming copyright ? They just try it out.
Do they admit, the sudokus were created by computer, BTW. ?

>Most of the puzzles
>published in major papers also contain copyright notices
>under the individual puzzles.

Hmm, I didn't know. No sudokus in the papers I read.
It _might_ be that the presentation is copyrighted but the
puzzle itself as a set of 81 numbers in a sudoku-database
hardly is.

>These entities have the money
>-- and some incentive -- to put up a court fight.

no need to bother the court in whatever country, we should be
able to figure that out by ourselves. (aren't we ?)
But I don't think these "entities" would win the court fight.

>What should and shouldn't be allowed in your opinion or your
>interpretation of one or another local copyright laws is
>meaningless. Most infringement disputes are won by the
>entitiy with the most money and/or power.

ahh, where are you from ? Is it really this way in
your country ? Sorry for that.

>Go ahead -- collect all the Sudoku published in newspapers

some should be enough

>or on websites by the UK TIMES or the TELEGRAPH and enter
>them into the public domain on in this forum as you've done
>to Angus. Make sure to notify them that you're doing it
>because you don't think they have any rights. I PROMISE
>you that they will take action against you. They'll probably
>force this forum to be closed down,

can they do this without court order ? (assuming this board
is in UK)

>send you a cease and
>desist letter or worse. If you have enough time and money
>you might prevail in court -- after losing most of your
>time and money. Your friends will think you are right,
>your family will think you are right, your lawyer will
>think you are right, the bank to which you will have to
>sell your house in order to pay your lawyer will think
>you are right.
>
>Even if you could make a case -- and this is not cut and
>dry as you claim it is -- that a single puzzle is too small,
>that it doesn't pass your personal test to be a creative work,
>a collection of 100 of them is another thing again.

one takes 1/100 sec., 100 take 1 sec. Where's the difference ?
It's negligable.

>The simple act of compiling short works that ARE in the
>public domain in a cohesive work makes the whole a creative work.

not necessarily

>Again, you CANNOT make a distinction between those that are
>computer generated and those that are made by hand -- you
>can't prove one way or the other anyway.

_I_ have to prove this ? I think those who claim copyright
would have to prove it.

>I don't want to go back and forth one what should and
>shouldn't be -- I don't believe in intrinsic "right"
>and "wrong" only "legal" and "illegal", "agreed-upon"
>and "not-agreed-upon". If a group of people with power
>over other decide to enforce certain rules at a certain
>time in a certain place -- that's real. You think Angus
>has no rights to his work. I think I have the right to
>sell your house. If I can win in court, that's just
>what I'll do.

don't be kidding. You'd had to convince the (German) judge.
(if I had a house)

>It has nothing to do with right and wrong
>-- certainly not logic.

that's not what those laws and politicians are trying to tell us...

>I don't understand the majority of e.e.cummings work.
>It looks like monkeys on typewriters to me. My ingnorance
>does not give me the right or power to put his work into
>the public domain.

I don't know e.e.cummings ... looked it up : American poet.
If you are from USA, let me refer you to Section 102(b)
of the (federal) Copyright Act of 1976

>I personally think all the books in the bookstores on
>Sudoku are garbage, spit out by programs by people who
>for the most part don't give a rat's ass about puzzles
>or puzzle solvers, they just want to cash in as easily
>as possible. Half of these "authors" have credits that
>have absolutely nothing to do with the field -- they
>just thought they could grab some cash. They will
>flood the market with puzzles that for the most part
>are in the Very Easy to Medium range and the general
>public will become bored and forget Sudoku within
>another 12 months or so. I hope most of them get
>a rash. None of this invalidates they're claim to
>copyright.

do you know the text of the copyright laws at least,
so you can judge about this ? Even if they can't be
enforced in your country, as you seem to think.

>I think Angus has demonstrated that he
>puts *far* more work and thought into both his sofware
>and the creation of the puzzles and puzzle packs than
>*any* of the authors and compilers with books out.
>This doesn't give him a greater claim to copyright,
>but certainly not less.
>
>Finally, no one is losing anything and nothing is at
>risk if Angus adds a copyright notice to his puzzles.

where will it lead ? People will start claiming copyright
on latin squares,permutations,numbers. Soon most
of the interesting integers would be copyrighted.

>Maybe you are right, that it does him no good. Until
>and unless you can show that someone is being harmed
>by his action -- cut it out!

he indirectly accuses me and others of doing illegal.
I think most people will copy the sudokus while unzipping,
formatting,grouping converting them.
Experience says that these sudokus often appear as examples
in forums like this. Is this all illegal ?

>If you want to test your claim that these puzzles are not
>protected, challenge someone with the time and money to
>take you to court

although you lined out earlier:

>They'll probably force this forum to be closed down,
>send you a cease and desist letter or worse. If you
>have enough time and money you might prevail in court
>-- after losing most of your time and money.

Not that I think, this would happen, but apparantly you want this
for some reason. Although you also wrote :

>Your friends will think you are right,
>your family will think you are right, your lawyer will
>think you are right, the bank to which you will have to
>sell your house in order to pay your lawyer will think
>you are right.

So you must like the system, how you described it.

>-- bullying Angus proves nothing.

don't you think, this should be settled by anguing
instead of "bullying" ?
Where are the legal experts ? Don't you also feel,
that there should be no copyright on sudoku-instances ?

So many people defending copyright on sudokus but so few
references to law, noone yet commented on the sudoku<->QWH
thing. I'm a bit disappointed.
Guess I should ask in sci.math or such

Nick70, also where are you from that you agree with chuckfresno ?
It must be the same in your country as in chuckfresno's.
OK, apparantly Angus is from Australia, I didn't check this
before and I don't know about Australian laws. I assume it's
similar as in USA or UK. Correct me, if I'm wrong.




Guenter.
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Nick70

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 160
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dukuso wrote:
the best thing I can hope for is, that I finally convince you all.

You won't. The only thing you obtain is beong annoying.
For starters, I will stop posting on this forum the original puzzles I created.

dukuso wrote:
I'm protecting science.

Who appointed you btw? Science can defend itself without your help.

dukuso wrote:
_I_ have to prove this ? I think those who claim copyright would have to prove it.

Copyright is automatic on any original work. When you will be brought to court by the publisher of a book you reposted claiming it was public domain, you will have to prove that you had the right to do so.
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